Government BUY the People

On Sunday the 25th, I went to the Wild Oats Supermarket in Saugus, MA, where I was greeted by a petition circulator.  I was presented with an Initiative Petition to allow alcohol to be sold in supermarkets.  The young man, Mr. Tiontee Johnson, explained how I needed to make my signature legible and added when I am done signing that he has another Petition about Traditional Marriage that he would like me to sign too.  "You know", he said, "if you believe in 'Adam and Eve.'"  He then added, "this signing on either of these just means you want it on the ballot, it doesn't really mean anything today."

Well, I signed the Petition to allow alcohol to be sold and asked Mr. Johnson if my name would be made public and was told emphatically, "No, these signatures go directly to the Secretary of State." Interesting...   I was then asked if I wanted to sign "the traditional marriage petition."  When I said no,  He told me that he was being paid $1 a signature and that it would really help him if I could sign!

I asked Mr. Johnson for a card (see photo) and he gave me his employer's business card.  In further questioning, I found out that Mr. Johnson is not even a Massachusetts resident but one of many that were bussed in from California and put up in hotels all over the Baystate and paid to collect signatures.  By the way, the area code on the business card is from Michigan.

There are TWO very disturbing things going on here. 

(1) The "people's petition" process in Massachusetts is being undermined by "buck a signature" out-of-state petition circulators all the while petition spokespersons like Kris Mineau continue to spout rhetoric about the process being an expression of "the people's" voice.  So cut the bull Kris and tell the good people of Massachusetts who is really behind this Ballot Initiative.  I wonder, is this where all the "faith based initiative" money is going?

(2) Signature gatherers clearly feel entitled to say whatever they want to get people to sign even if it is incorrect. So we not only have to worry about The Catholic Church telling people that same-sex marriage is ending civilization but we now have to worry about a "puppy-dog eyed" signature gatherer claiming that the signer is "helping him out financially" and that signing "doesn't really mean anything."

There is too much at stake for this to be allowed to happen.  Citizens have a responsibility not to be duped into signing and to hold the petition sponsors accountable for any fraud or deception that might be committed on their behalf by these out-of-state petition pushers.

If you have an experience like mine, report it immediately to Peter Sacks of the Attorney General's Office at  (617) 727-2200.

Tom Lang, Director

Comments

[John Hosty]

It is time that the gay community ACT UP and let themselves work as one body, one voice working as a team for a common good; equality for everyone. If you are not in a group, find one. If you are in a group, ask your leaders to coordinate their efforts. If you are a leader of a group ask yourself how you can work in cooperation with other fellow leaders. This IS the time you have been waiting for folks, don't miss out on your chance to make history.

[Joe S]

John Hosty,

It would be helpful if you were to let people know where these "group leaders are". Anyone who now does not think that an actual "war" is going on is being lead down the primrose path. Strong arm tactics like this clearly show the lack of support this initiative has. It also show the length that these people are willing to go to get this on the ballot. People from Michigan have no place in Massachusetts politics. It might also help to call the number on the card and let them know that they are fooling no one!

Tom, since you obviously reported this to the Attorney Generals office, what exactly is he going to do about it?

Also...if tactics like this can be be used...why can't groups and friends seek out these "petitioners" and sign false names and addresses? People could simply take names out of a hat, or jot down some names at the cemetary and sign accordingly. My understanding is that if there are too many bogus or unsubstantiated signatures on a petition that the entire petition is thrown out!

Isn't fighting fire with fire fair?

Don't tactics like what that young man was being hired to do merit "not playing by the rules"?

Humm...one must decide..and maybe its time to not live under a basket and pretend that people like Kris M. and others will actually play fair. Maybe its time to do what we need to do to protect the rights of the people and the process that folks have died for!

It still is important as well to confront the "Christian" churches with loss of their 501(3)(c) status. Go to the site below to learn the rules that churches must abide by. If they have signature rallies in their buildings and during services - they are in violation - be sure to collect any information given out, get the names of any clergy present and be sure if money is collected to find out how it will be used. Then, get your local reprepresentives involved. Contact the local IRS office to begin the investigation. Don't allow churches to involve themselve beyond what the constitution allows them to.

http://pewforum.org/publications/
reports/politicspulpit.pdf

[John Hosty]

That's great advise Joe, I will do some research and see what information I can come up with to share.

[Joe S]

John thats great...

and be SURE to print some of the groups that people can join to become active in the process.

[Aaron Toleos]

For more on the 501(3)(c)issue, visit the following page on the VoteOnMarriage site:

http://www.voteonmarriage.org/pastors.html

Scroll to the bottom where there is section called "Legality of Church Involvement" and you can read a memorandum (in pdf) on the issue from the Alliance Defense Fund.

[Tyler]

If you intentionally sign the wrong name, it's a punishable offense. Here's one area where you may not want to "fight fire with fire" since it can cost you to violate the laws.

There is simply NOTHING illegal going on here in the petition process, and it has a vast majority support even in this state.

Welcome to politics, my friends...where the people decide!

Sincerely,

Tyler

[Cherie Johnson]

I intend on standing in front of my local Catholic church and passing out my own pamphlet in regards to this issue. I don't give a rat's ass if people call me names or try and intimidate me. I am finding that the HRC and the other gay and lesbian groups are not joining together to promote any type of petition prevention. This is disturbing to me as I will probably be the only one standing in front of my local Catholic church on Sunday, October 2nd.
Perhaps the gay and lesbian groups should take note of the organized movement during the 60's and 70's. Key word is organized. People need to get involved and DO something.
I am reminded as I prepare my homemade pamphlets by this: Thomas Jefferson, in his 1st inaugural address in 1801 said, " Though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable. The minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression".
I don't know about the rest of the gay and lesbian population, but I am sick of being oppressed. How long is it going to take for the rest of you to get pissed off enough to stand up and say enough is enough.
IT IS TIME TO FIGHT BACK. GET ORGANIZED and GET INVOLVED.

[Joe S]

Tyler

How smug and glib of you!

1st of all you are telling people if they "sign the wrong name it is a punish offense". How, may I ask you is any one every going to prove you committed any offense if you name is not even on the list?

Please don't treat people here like they are in kindergarden. You have every right to your opinion (as narrow as that may be), but people may do as they wish in regards to signing or not signing any petition.

[Joe S]

and P.S. Tyler

There ARE illegal things going on here as to IRS Tax Code 501(3)(c).

Churches are not allowed to have petition signings INSIDE of their buildings or ON THEIR PROPERTY. They also may not spend any more than 5% to 15% of their event time on any political issue without the risk of losing their tax status.

Between the petitions in the church bulletins, "signing stations", speeches from the pulpit, websites, canvassing etc. they are on the razor's edge and if the powers that be become invovled, they will face the tax consequences.

The separation of church and state is also in the constitution Tyler and you as an American should be even more concerned about that division rather than who gets married (which is NONE OF YOUR BUSIENSS ANYWAY!)

[Tom Lang]

Joe S,

Please no one was being smug. To forge a name is illegal--you know that. Equally illegal is to interfer in the process of the initiative petition. The last thing that KnowThyNeighbor wants is to be accused of knowing about that sort of activity by our supporters.

You can, however, stand next to the petition signature gatherers and talk to people who might sign the anti-marriage petition and explain to them why they should not sign it. You can even inform them that their names and addresses are public knowledge.

Tom Lang, Director

[Joe S]

Tom

I do not advocate that any do anything illegal. However, Tyler WAS being smug.

[Joe S]

Tom

I do not advocate that anyone do anything illegal. However, Tyler WAS being smug.

[Joe S]

Tom

I do not advocate that anyone do anything illegal. However, Tyler WAS being smug.

[Tyler]

I was most certainly not being smug. The petitions themselves (I have hundreds that will be full by the end of next month) state that it is illegal to intentionally damage them. If I start seeing the "protestors" showing up to intentionally damage any petitions, I'll start bringing along my digital camera and make sure that the officers get the pictures of anyone that is intentionally derailing the legal process of obtaining signatures. I will encourage anyone else facing such opposition to do the same.

You want to talk about your "constitutional right" to marriage, I'll be sure to excercise my constitutional right to a people's petition to let this go to a vote by the citizens of this state!

With respect to your comment on "Separation of church and state", that is exactly nowhere in the constitution, but is rather based on a SCOTUS ruling circa 1955 or so...I could look it up, but I know my timeframe is essentially correct.

The constitution has two clauses about religion:

1) Establishment clause, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

2) Free-excercise clause, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Churches getting signatures isn't congress making a law. Government telling churches what they can and can't do, however, is prohibiting the free exercise thereof. You need to understand what the constitution ACTUALLY SAYS, when you say what the constitution says.

Besides, didn't Kerry make a few speeches from the pulpit in Florida on the campaign trail? And was that a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state"?

Please - if there is to be a restriction on religion, there should be a restriction on anti-religion as well. I would not advocate that, and neither should you.

Blessings!

-Tyler

[Bigoted Right Wing Homophobic Nut Job]

So Tom, this from your own blog is ok though?

I am a lesbian in CA and have web design skills. I would be willing to help out with a site like this for our state, if anyone else is interested. However, I know very little about the ballot process in CA and how we would go about obtaining the names/addresses.

Posted by: Ayesha | September 13, 2005 at 05:36 PM

[Bigoted Right Wing Homophobic Nut Job]

and this?

Posted by: mike | September 13, 2005 at 02:07 AM

As a straight guy who believes in equal rights, the only problem I have with your site is that it only covers the petitions in Massachusetts I live in California, and they're about to start collecting signatures on two separate initiatives to attack gay families. Would you consider opening your site to other states as well?
As you might have heard, our legislature passed a bill to allow gay marriage here - but our "governator" (unlike every other elected Republican that says it should be a matter for the legislature) wants the courts to handle it. That's getting some of the usual "anti-family" forces to get petitions going.
The "email me if my neighbor signs" is a wonderful thing, by the way.

Posted by: John | September 13, 2005 at 02:32 AM

[Bigoted Right Wing Homophobic Nut Job]

and this;

Posted by: modern instances | September 13, 2005 at 08:07 PM

Great site ! Its about time! Can't wait to use the LIST of names and addresses.

[Bigoted Right Wing Homophobic Nut Job]

and this;

Just wanted to add this request: Can you pretty-please add other states to your activist site?

I'm not a Massachusetts resident. I live in Tennessee and am originally from Mississippi. (Yeah, both are in the buckle of the so-called Bible Belt. Yech.) I would wholeheartedly support and help publicize a site that called well-deserved attention to marital bigots in my area.

Keep up the good work!!!!!

Posted by: Carolyn Bahm | September 16, 2005 at 01:21 PM

[Cherie Johnson]

Perhaps the churches,supermarkets and other petition signature gathering places should be monitored in BOXFORD. Seems like the true face of seeing red has come out in the name. Homophobic hits the nail right on the head as it does with most right wing christian fundamentalists. Hey Red why don't you just put a white sheet over your head and be done with it.Maybe Casper would be a more appropriate name.Pretty soon we shall see.
Are you prepared? Didn't think so...better stock up on white sheets.

[Joe S]

Tyler

You are misguided and seem to have misunderstood what I was saying.

The sepration of church and state in this issue has to do with THE IRS...NOT the constitution! The constituon only spoke about the separation of powers and you are correct in your statement about it saying nothing about churches and political petition drives. What churches have to lose is their TAX FREE STATUS as a non-profit organization. Non-Profit orginazations are supposed to be in business for the general welfare of the people not as poltical bodies. It is for this reason that the are given tax free status so that they can survive financially and not be incumbered with taxes. Churches that take on the role of political bodies are NOT fulfilling their primary function. Just so you know, churches ARE allowed to be part of the political process and still keep their 501(3)(c) status. BUT they must adhere to special rules avoiding direct political involvement for one political "bent" or another. John Kerry and George Bush BOTH used churches to campaign....this is ALL LEGAL within the 501(3)(c) guidelines...HOWEVER...if any one of those churches had come out in support of either of the candidates...they would have been at risk for losing the benefit. Use of their space in that context was legal...USE OF IT TO BE A "SIGNING STATION" IS NOT AND IF THE CHURCHES GIVE OUT PETITIONS OR PROVIDE SPACE THIS COMING SUNDAY, THEY WILL BE AT RISK OF LOSING THEIR STATUS. The choice, of course, is theirs. I do respect your right to a citizens initiative, but am puzzeled why you would be so involved in one that will hurt so many people. Why is it that you are so against gay marriage? Why must you cause harm to those you don't know?

These are important questions and I don't ask them lightly.

This petition is not just about your comfort level with gay people or whether you like them or not. This is about stripping away the civil rights of people for what I see is not a compelling reason.

If you knew someone that you cared about was about to lose rights given to them by the courts and the legislature I wonder how you would respond? What if it was your brother, sister, parent, uncle, aunt, best friend? Would putting a face on it make a difference? Tyler, these people's lives are real...their families are real! Are they different...YES....AND THE SAME TOO!

I appeal to your conscience, please think about it.

Joe S

[Tom Lang]

Sorry All. I spend so much time fighting the good fight outside of blog-land or blogger-ville, that I did not see the posts regarding other states. Yes we would and are looking into what is happening in other states. California is a tough one. Names and addresses are NOT public information in an initiative petition, though just like in Massachusetts, the signature gatherers probably are xeroxing the petitions and creating a database. From what I was told by the Secretary of State in CA, the signature gatherers check the public voter registration lists and voter turnout sheets and create a very clearcut plan of attack. When they go to neighborhoods they pretty much know who would sign the petition.

So, what to do... Collect all voter registrations like they do. Create organized phone banks and follow the votes and signatures. Also, if you can prove that the signature gatherers have access to names and addresses in an initiative process and the general public doesn't, then you have a clear cut court case. Seek out a GLBT based law firm and present this.

Also, you could put a large group of volunteers together to follow the signature gatherers in a "truth squadding" which MassEquality was supposed to do in Mass. but failed us all gravely. A truth squad goes to the places where the gatherers are and speaks to the potential signer before and during the signing process. Many people don't like to be engaged and especially engaged in conversation and would rather not sign at all. This is very very effective.

Tom Lang

[John Hosty]

What to do? I think we should discuss all of our possible options and then organize people to make sure we cover all bases. Team effort will make sure that we are all working on different projects and being as efficent as possible. Tom, we need a leader. Start leading, because if I have to sit on my ass in front of this computer and read one more sentence of hubristic bible thumping prattle without doing something about it, I just might lose my mind.

[Tyler]

Joe -

With all due respect, this is not a civil rights issue - because it is centered around (and I know you hate to hear this) people's choices. Disabled persons generally don't choose their disability (although in certain cases they choose the circumstances leading up to it, i.e. DWI), blacks do not choose their color, females do not choose their gender, but homosexuals DO choose their sexual orientation. Think about it - how many people that you know that are homosexual initiated their first homosexual encounter (or sexual encounter)? The truth is, most of us DON'T choose our first sexual encounter. Sadly, it comes as a result of being pressured into a situation. I know, because I've been on both sides of that coin.

I'll admit - some of my early sexual experiences were with older boys. I didn't want that, and for years I didn't know if that's the way I was "made". But I know for sure now that I only thought those things because I was confused and deeply troubled.

You can remain a homosexual, or become a heterosexual - it makes no difference to me. But don't continue on with the patronizing "civil rights" argument. It's highly offensive to those who actually deserve protection of their rights because of something that they have absolutely no control over.

Open the floodgates and let the responses roll...

-Tyler

[Tyler]

Joe, you said in your post "The separation of church and state is also in the constitution Tyler", read it. You said nothing in there about constitutional prohibition of churches as signing stations (it's not in there, although I'm not sure of the 501(c) legalities) so I don't know why you came off and spouted at me about not understanding what you said. I read what you said...three times...it still doesn't make sense.

By the way, where in my posts is ANYTHING that is "hubristic bible thumping prattle"? Perhaps you weren't referring to me...I think that the first real mention of God came from someone else, and the initial quotes about what Jesus said were also posted by some other person.

By the way, what is it about homosexuals and Jesus? I know many homosexuals who are Christians, in fact my good friend in California is a Christian AND a practicing homosexual. However, most of the opposition that I have met either hates the concept of Jesus or chooses to quote Him out of context...can someone please explain to me the predominant alliance between "homosexual" and "anti-savior"? I would really like to know!

[Joe S]

Tyler

I think you are mixing up 2 people's posts...I am not the one who said anything about "hubristic bible thumping prattle".

I also did not say anything negative about homosexuals and Jesus. I am a practicing christian as well.

I think I may be able to answer the question of Jesus and Gays however...it is NOT "JESUS" that some gay folks have a problem with...IT IS HIS FOLLOWERS....and them, through association, they reject God.

The true fact is that JESUS NEVER said anything about homosexuality....NEVER (at least that was written down anyway).

Also, I think that gay people find it disturbing that the notion of an "all inclusive God" actually rejects them in scripture...but there again...these scriptures are taken out of context and many twists and turns are added to suit the personal agenda of the speaker.

The fact is that if the churches and some people, many without any understanding of biblical teaching,quote these passages them they MUST also look at the passages before them and after them....for example...in LEVITICUS...the passage about men lying with men is an "abomination" punishable by death...if the reader examines further...it also says that eating pork or shellfish or if a child disobeys their parents that too is an ABOMINATION and they shall die for it....

So....if you eat a ham sandwich or a lobster and tell your parents "NO"....you better get ready for the brimstone.....cause you are going to fry forever....

Also....as mentioned....Jesus did NOT say anything about gay people...but DID say a number of things about DIVORCE...

Where is the constitutional petition to end the practice of divorce?

There is none...and won't be...because it is absurd to bind 2 people forever when there are circumstances that are insurmountable.

So then my question...WHY IS THERE THIS PETITION?

If people are claiming that "THIS IS AGAINST THE BIBLE" or "IT IS AN ABOMINATION AGAINST GOD".....Then they had better get the presses going to print up "PEOPLE'S PETITIONS" on DIVORCE and EATING PORK AND SHELLFISH which then can be given out in bulletins and signed at churches....Maybe it can be called "SAVE SEAFOOD SUNDAY"

Do you see where I am going with this....this is purely political...it has nothing to do with GOD or with CHILDREN...they are BUZZ WORDS that envolk people's emotions and therefore initiate action.

Tyler, it is obvious that your convictions are strong and I respect that...but please try to see the logic I say above and atleast think about the consequences of this action.