Comic Relief

The horrors of gay marriage in Massachusetts are examined in a recent segment by Ed Helms from The Daily Show.

Note: The anti-gay marriage activist featured in the clip is Brian Camenker of the Article 8 Alliance.

Aaron Toleos, Director

Comments

[Ghengis Cohen]

John B asked me to explain Loving v. Virginia to him, and why it doesn't say what Goodridge pretends that it says. That takes quotes. It often takes longer to explain the bleeding obvious.

[Phil]

Actually I meant ALL the threads on here. On this thread alone you have about 50% of the posts. On the other ones... about the same. It doesn't take longer to explain the bleeding obvious, it takes someone who knows how to get their point across without monopolizing a discussion.

[Ghengis Cohen]

Most of the posts that I don't write, either are about me, or address me, demanding a response. When I don't reply to these, nate and others complain that I am neglecting them. Don't you have anything to talk about other than me, Phil?

[Ghengis Cohen]

It doesn't take longer to explain the bleeding obvious, it takes someone who knows how to get their point across without monopolizing a discussion.

It wasn't my point; I was answering the constitutional law question that John B. had asked me. If you can give the same answer more concisely than I did, then show me; I can never learn too many writing tricks.

[Elaine]

My wife and went shopping at Shaws in Milford, MA last Sunday, 11/06/2005, and were shocked to see a man outside the store gathering signatures. When I asked him what he was asking for signatures on, he very kindly told me that it was for marriage rights. Well his tone quickly changed when I told him I was a married lesbian,to which he actually said I could still sign the petition and be able to have civil unions if I wanted. Well our banter went back and forth for a while, until he touched on the issue of adoption. My wife legally adopted our nine year old twin sons shortly after we were married last Nov. 20th, and that man...had the audacity to call me a child abuser quite loudly across the parking lot. I did call the manager at Shaws, and told him I was thinking of calling the police due to the fact that I was emotionally and verbally harassed just trying to buy food.
Fraud is one thing....and that sucks enough, but to be harrased in your own town in front of your neighbors...to be called a child abuser..these people are christian terrorists.

[Ghengis Cohen: Link to "gay rights" protesters tapdancing on child coffins]

If that's terrorism, then it's also terrorism when homocentrists accuse conservative Christians of "child abuse" for teaching that homosexuality is sinful. (See link). Both sides tell kids their story, and both sides accuse the other side of child abuse.

Personally I think we should save terms like "child abuse" for real incidents of child abuse, rather than trying to hijack the term for political grandstanding. We should let parents teach kids their own story and beliefs, and Lexington schools should stop trying to sexualize kindergardeners in violation of their parents' wishes and rights under state law.

I agree what the petition gatherer did to you was harassment, but I wonder if you'd see it the same way if roles had been reversed, and it was a pro-ssm activist who was screaming "child abuser" at a conservative Christian from across the parking lot.

[Elaine]

I personally feel that each child should be taught tolerance, because if we don't, we inadvertently teach them hate. I also feel that teaching young children about other types of families, opens them up to many opportunities for family discussion. One does not have to live a certain way to be able to talk about it openly and honestly with their kids. As for sexualizing kindergartners, perhaps it is the way to let kids know that maybe their friend Johnny lives with his family and he has two Moms instead of a Mom and a Dad. There is noting wrong with letting kids know that. There does not have to be any talk about what the adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. I do not care to let my kids know what any adults do sexually, gay or straight. Those talks come a lot later, when kids are much more mature and ready for that. Just letting there be a discussion makes all the kids feel better and more safe to be able to express their thoughts and feelings. My sons know that there are all different kinds of love and families and no one way is right or wrong.
Christians teach there kids to love, honor, and trust their families. Just the same as I teach mine. We are not bad, just different. I respect everyone out there raising kids, its a tough job.

[Tom Lang]

Ghengis,

What are you doing? I clicked on your link
"Gay Rights Tapdancing on Child Coffins" and see that it links to a blog which re-counts Richard Gregoire's and my conversation about the Love Won Out Conference. Am I missing something? Please fill me in. "Tapdancing on Child Coffins??!!!!!!!"

QueerToday, the youth activist group, brought two plywood coffins to symbolize that there are higher rates of teen suicide among gay youth and higher violence against gay youth when there are not "safe zones" and affirming schools/communities.

How does that translate into "gay rights protesters tapdancing on child coffins" ??

[Chip L]

http://www.proft.org/tips/conv-terror.html - CONVERSATIONAL RIGHT WING TERRORISM REDUX

[Chip L]

Elaine - thank you so very much for your post. You are the individual that we gay men and women hope to find when we visit KTN.

[Chip L]

Tom-

You have obviously read this "kind and gentle guy" on his Opine Blog.

I just found this gay-affirming and KTN SUPPORTING OUR EFFORTS BLOG. But, of course, you have again invited him, so I repeat:

"They will tell you that they have been invited to repeat and repeat and repeat and attack and attack and retreat and retreat to attack another day when told that monopoly is not appropriate. He left for a couple of hours to return"

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=MASS+EQUALITY+AGAINST+KTN+BLOG&ei=UTF-8&u=www.acepryhill.com/archives/cat_religion.html&w=mass+equality+against+ktn+blog&d=L9H_oGFULvyl&icp=1&.intl=us

[Ghengis Cohen]

That doesn't answer my question, Elaine. Do you think that Lexington has a right to start teaching children about "lesbian mommies" (and that is the word they use) without informing parents about what they are doing, without letting parents opt their kids out of the program, and even going to the extent of trying to bind children to secrecy, telling them "don't tell your parents what we talked about here"?

Because frankly, I don't think that's tolerant. I think it's Stalinism. I respect your right to teach your child as you see fit, but if you start imposing your views on other people's children, then you are no better than that man who screamed at you across the parking lot.

Tom -- tapdance = metaphor. I think your friend exploits the tragedies of teen suicides to try to label his enemies child abusers. Had any of these kids committed suicide while in the program that you all were protesting? No. It was just another coffin tapdance. Now Flynt v. Fallwell made clear that bad taste is constitutionally protected, but that doesn't mean that we can't denounce it.

Chip -- your search comes up empty. Tom and Paul talked about Mass Equality criticizing KTN, and Paul provided a link.

[Ghengis Cohen]

Kindergarden children, Elaine. Do you think it's healthy to have class discussions where the teacher tells FIVE YEAR OLDS to keep their conversations secret from parents?

Would you want the "Christians" that you demonize being able to do the same to your kids in school, doing the things that those Christians thought was best for society, tolerance, and your kids -- against the parents' wishes?

[Betsy]

Hey Ghengis, when did Elaine say anything about secrecy? Or going against parents' wishes? I believe she was saying that OPEN discussion, with respect and tolerance, work far better -- and are much more Christian -- than secrecy, division and stereotyping. Please re-read her post.

I think that having a very basic discussion with children -- at the level of, "There are many different kinds of families, and some of your friends are part of them" (e.g., single-parent families that are the unfortunate result of death or -- heaven forbid -- divorce [surely you know, since you appear to have an education that enables you to address the 14th Amendment, Loving v. Virginia, and other issues of constitutional law, that the statistics about the soaring divorce rate in this country relate only to heterosexual couples], mixed-race couples [or are you also offended by "miscegenation," speaking of Loving v. Virginia], mixed-religion couples, or families where children are being raised by grandparents or aunts or uncles because their own straight parents are unable to manage alcohol, drug or other issues) -- is designed to bring up questions (isn't that why they call it "education"), and that PARENTS should be able to answer such questions in any manner they wish. It's your home, after all.

Moreover, no one is asking anyone to talk about the sexual practices of the parents or parental figures in these families to young children. Quite frankly, if anyone is continuously injecting sexuality into this ongoing discussion, it is folks like you, who seem not to be able to separate what goes on behind your bedroom doors from the rest of your lives.

That said, I pity your children. You are certainly free to teach them whatever you see fit -- in fact, that is your job as a parent. You need to recognize, however, that if you choose to "opt" your kids "out" of learning about different things, you are doing them a disservice, because they will not be prepared to deal with the world as they grow. Placing your childrens' heads in the sand by teaching them that the world is the monolithic place you appear to want it to be strikes me as questionable parenting.

Let me clarify that I am not saying you need to wantonly expose your children to all of the violence (most of it these days the result of long-churning religious wars, because of the intolerance and lack of love that organized religion seems to need to maintain itself), drugs and craziness that are out there -- I am certainly not doing that with my children, who are involved in several organized sports teams, who do all their homework every night before they get to watch any television (all PG-13-rated or lower, as is appropriate for their ages), and who plan to be, respectively, an astronaut (after he gets out of the Air Force) and an FBI agent. No lesbo/communist/Amerika-hating kids there for sure. They will, however, grow up open-minded and flexible, and, most important, able to make their own decisions about what is right and what is wrong based on the moral values that I and my wife endeavor to teach them every minute of every day: love, honesty, integrity, self-respect and respect of others, hard work and tolerance.

Finally, what the heck are you so afraid of? Do you think your kids going to "catch the Gay"? Don't you do yourself, and all those other parents, a major disservice by suggesting that a 20-minute (or whatever) segment in a classroom, amidst everything else that goes on in a basic school day, is somehow going to trump all of the values that purportedly are being taught at home and at church? No, please, Ghengis, don't be so humble -- don't have so little faith in your faith. It's just not becoming.

[Ghengis Cohen]

Betsy, I raised the secrecy and against the parents wishes questions, since that is what is happening with the Lexington Kindergarden program. I agreed with Elaine that what happened to her was wrong, and harassment, and wanted to see if she applied the same principles and protections to parents on the opposite side of the ssm question.

Apparently she doesn't, and that's too bad.

Placing your childrens' heads in the sand by teaching them that the world is the monolithic place you appear to want it to be strikes me as questionable parenting.

See, you're no different than that man that called Elaine a child abuser. You question my parenting, based on no information other than 1) I oppose ssm, and 2) I oppose what the school in Lexington is doing by cutting children out of their children's education.

Parents have the right to determine when and how my children learn about sex. I don't have to answer to you about that, Betsy. Don't make stupid assumptions about what I am or am not teaching my kids; it's simply none of your business.

The Lexington schools not only refuse to let parents opt out (as required by your state law), but they refuse to even let parents know when such things will be discussed, and go so far as to tell kids to keep secrets from their parents about what was discussed.

I think that it teaches a very sick attitude towards sexuality when strangers come into a class, talk to kids about sex, and then tell them to keep it a secret from their parents. Most of the same-sex couples that I know would be horrified if someone did that to their children. Not all same-sex couples place their politics above their rights as a parent, as you seem to.

[Ghengis Cohen]

Correction:

See, you're no different than that man that called Elaine a child abuser. You question my parenting, based on no information other than 1) I oppose ssm, and 2) I oppose what the school in Lexington is doing by cutting PARENTS out of their children's education.

[Betsy]

Ghengis (Ghengis?), I see that you like to think of yourself as a careful reader of texts, and yet your spew above demonstrates otherwise.

As for whether I am a "child-abuser," that accusation is absurd, but name-calling does seem to be a favorite tactic of you "anti-ssm-ers." As for whether I am questioning your parenting, you're absolutely right I am. I think you're dead wrong in your approach to education, and I feel sorry for your children. (That's okay, you can pity mine too, as petty as that would be.)

At the same time, as to whether parents have the right to determine when and how your, or anyone else's, children learn about sex, I agree with you 100%. I don't need schools telling my children about sex -- that's my job. The problem here is purely and simply one of your lack of intellectual honesty.

You appear to be an intelligent person, and yet you refuse to acknowledge - because it does not benefit your position - that the schools are not proposing to teach sex to children. Telling school children that some of their classmates have two mothers or two fathers is no more about sex than telling them that some of their classmates have a mother and a father. Pretty darn simple, especially for such a legal scholar as yourself. But wait, let's "apply the same principles," as you encourage: Is your whole life about sex because you are a straight man? I think (and would hope) not. Similarly, nor is mine, simply because I am a lesbian.

But, of course, gay people are much easier to demonize when you can cast them as all about sex and only sex. That's funny, as it would be awfully difficult to go to my 9 to 5 job, pay my taxes, walk my dogs, make my kids' lunches, go to PTA meetings and serve as a member of my town's local government if I was only about sex. But hey, as I noted above, you seem to be fond of the sand.

As for "stupid assumptions," I'll leave those to you -- you appear to favor them. Finally, with regard to your suggestion that I or any ther "ssm-er" places his or her own "politics above [his or her] rights as a parent," well, isn't that just the pot calling the kettle black?

[Ghengis Cohen]

Betsy, I NEVER called you a child abuser. I said the guy that did was harassing you.

[Chip L]

Betsey - lesbian sister. Tom, the blog owner, and KTN founder, is simply allowing this Genghis guy blog here as well as his own blog.

It is becoming painfully obvious to me that this blog is a Right Wing Forum, facilitated by Genghis. Tom is an absentee blogger whose only blogs seems to be interacting with Genghis.

Now, Genghis is going to think that YOU and ME are the same person. He is an extremely clever professional writer who uses every trick to change the agenda.

You see, rather than discussing SSM issues, we are discussing SSUS and LTSSR's....and hetero nihilists and violent gays, etc....You should go to his blog and see the photo that Richard fed him.

Don't forget, they said that MA voters would do a petition as the will of the people and they hire a CA firm known for their neocon GOP dirty tricks. Dobson's guys are here....and there is nowhere where gays and lesbians can blog without being verbally violated by these bastards.

[Ghengis Cohen]

As for whether I am questioning your parenting, you're absolutely right I am. I think you're dead wrong in your approach to education, and I feel sorry for your children. (That's okay, you can pity mine too, as petty as that would be.)

I'm not as petty or presumptuous as you are, Betsy. Unlike you, I don't make harassing remarks about people's parenting style when I know nothing about it. You are obviously cut out the the same mental and moral cloth as the man that Elaine met in the parking lot. You are doing exactly what he did-- calling someone a child abuser just because you fancy that you know better than me what's good for my children. You are an intrusive bigot, and it's fear of what people like you will do to our children in schools that makes most of us opposed to SSM. No I'm not talking about physical molestation. I'm talking about your using stalinistic tactics to brainwashing kids against their parents, teaching them to keep secrets from their parents, etc. Keep your ugly little political cult away from my child's school.

You know nothing about my approach to education, other than this: I think that when Lexington School district began to systematically tell five year old children to keep the lessons SECRET from their parents, that this constitutes child abuse as well as abuse of the parents' rights.

I have no trust at all in a school district that systematically tells children to keep secrets from their parents.

You are the one being intellectually dishonest by pretending that the word "LESBIAN" has anything to do with parenting. They weren't talking about "two mommies" -- they specified two LESBIAN mommies.

gay people are much easier to demonize when you can cast them as all about sex and only sex.

It's you and Lexington School district that are casting them as all about sex. And you are justifying shoving it in the face of five year olds, while telling the kids to keep it secret from their parents.

Telling school children that some of their classmates have two mothers or two fathers is no more about sex than telling them that some of their classmates have a mother and a father

Don't be obtuse. They shouldn't be telling the kids stories about Jason's HETEROSEXUAL mother and father any more than they should be rubbing the word "Lesbian" in the kids' faces. Leave the parents' sex lives out of it. Stop being dishonest and squeezing sexual references into stories supposedly about "families."

[Tom Lang]

Ghengis,

When I was in 2nd Grade a horrible horrible thing happened to me as it did to all of the young children in my class. Sex was forced on me and it caused the subject to be forced to be discussed in many households. We had no choice. Parents were not able to "opt out" nor did they have any choice as to what their children would experience that year.

There were four teachers in total in our Grade 2. As the year progressed it seemed that two of these teachers were gaining alot of weight. It went un-noticed by many of the children but toward the end of the school year, both teachers had to be replaced by substitute teachers. I can remember being very upset. We loved these two teachers, they were the favorites of most. I still to this day remember their names.

If you didn't already guess, two of my four teachers were pregnant (each by their respective husbands) and they both took maternity leave at the same time. It was all the talk on the playground. I wonder if parents "opt out" nowadays if their child's teacher puts them in such a difficult situation?

I and many other children that year were forced to ask some very disturbing questions. Thank goodness my parents knew what to do. When I asked my mother how a woman gets "pregnant," my mother answered simply, "it all starts with kissing, the rest you will find out when you are much older..."

And that is a 100% true story.

[Ghengis Cohen]

Tom, I doubt that they premeditated their pregnancies to push the lessons on you.

They let your parents explain it to you.

And they didn't tell you to keep anything a secret from your parents.

Lexington on the other hand has gone out of its way to shove sexuality in the face of kindergarden children, and has told the kids to keep secrets from their parents. This is, essentially, child sexual abuse, an abuse of the public trust, and violation of state law.

[Ghengis Cohen]

It's quite innocent when a kid finds out some sexual "secrets" and shares them with a peer. It's something quite different when an adult (and a trusted adult) involves children in a sex-related secret.

[Tom Lang]

Ghengis,

You are right, it is shameful. How dare the Lexington School District allow a coloring book with such graphic images as a family headed by same gendered parents. I cannot even stomach my breakfast this morning thinking about it.

[Ghengis Cohen]

Nice dodge, Tom. Here are the issues I raised, again:

1. The school told kids to keep the indoctrination secret from their parents.

2. The school started classifying certain mommies as "lesbian" to the kindergarden kids, which intrudes into telling kids about sex without their parents knowledge.

3. The school accused a parent of trespassing and had him enjoined from the premises where his child attends school (effectively banning him from voting among other things) for simply demanding his rights under MA state law.

The ACLU rep on scene justified the coercion by the SJC had held that same-sex relationships were "equal to heterosexual relationships." Apparently that justifies using state coercive power to indoctrinate children with that message before parents have a chance to teach them anything about sexuality. In other words, if MA families don't want teachers indoctrinating kids about sexuality, telling them to keep sexual secrets from their parents, and punishing dissenters who claim their rights as parents, then MA families need to amend their constitution to restore the meaning of marriage. It's just too damn bad that you're not willing to give others the same privilege to raise their children as you have for yours.